ToneGym Cafe

Hi guys and girls

I just dont get it...

This is from Beethoven's 32nd and last piano sonata.

Why... simply why the time signature is 12/32 and there are 16 thirty-second notes in a measure? This is not an error from the edition... I understand that 12/32 and 16/32 are different on their core (what otherwise would allow every note fit in the measure), but what am I loosing here?

Thanks for the help!

2 props

Steve Vera
Sep 18

I can’t wait for the day when i can actually answer this question

2 props

Cuantas Vacas
Sep 18

If I found this sheet by chance on the internet, I swear I would think it's a joke... Do you know of any accesible recording of this 'piece'? That would help my incredulous eyes!

PS. I think it would fit perfectly in Memes Space.

2 props

igor dinotte
Sep 18

@Steve Vera 😅 Not much of a big deal really! Knowing about meter and note values it's all it takes!

@Cuantas Vacas There are countless recordings over there! Let's see if I can post a YouTube video here. Its from 16'47 onwards:

I tried to cue where this excerpt starts. If you can't believe in your eyes, expect about your ears... It was written between 1820 and 1822 and, yeah... Ludwig got jazzy.

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Echo Rose
Sep 18

It's truly in 36/64; the 12/32 is implying unmarked triplets!! :)

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Cuantas Vacas
Sep 18

OMG this is a ragtime, probably the first one in music history, LOL!! Now seriously: I can see and hear (thanks for the video, @igor dinotte ) that 'swingy', triplet feel, but I simply can't fit any bar into a 12/32, whatever that means in this particular case. And what's more: most bars (I took the 1st one on the page displayed at around 29:30 of the vid) have a different duration for right and left hands (!), no matter how many times I count them... Could anyone tell me what am I doing wrong?

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igor dinotte
Sep 18

Thanks! You just made me more confused! 😅

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Cuantas Vacas
Sep 19

You're welcome. But remember who posted the 'music sheet from hell' that is destroying lives...😁

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David Saldarriaga
Sep 19

I know when composers pick a time signature they are trying to tell the performer something. So if there is an easier option and you don't pick it as a composer, you have a very specific reason. Maybe Beethoven was thinking about this piece as an Etude as well? Or maybe he intentionally wanted players to have a hard time and make the player not play the rhythm exactly as written but with mistakes to make it sound more free? Who knows, the guy was probably also a bit insane by the end lol

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igor dinotte
Sep 19

There seems to be a consensus about how to play it, I believe... At least all interpretations are consistently equal regarding to this passage's rythm. I didn't got what @Echo Rose mentioned about actually being in in 36/64; the 12/32 is implying unmarked triplets! I think I will write it down on that fashion and try to figute it out what it means.

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Cuantas Vacas
Sep 20

Please keep us updated!

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igor dinotte
Sep 20

I tried and it didn't made any sense =(. @Echo Rose Help us, please!

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Lucian Beschiu
Sep 20

the 32's which are followed by a 64'th are 32's triplets - so actually, 1 beat as it were. Like Igor says - there are unmarked triplets

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igor dinotte
Sep 20

I would much like to see it written on the right way! How can one imply all that?

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Azet Aya
Sep 20

Are you sure it wasn't written earlier? If it wasn't... well, then it IS an error in your edition. In my scores it's written actually...

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igor dinotte
Sep 20

Wow, I've never saw that...

I've done a quick research on IMSLP, and on two editions I've found this, but I did'nt find any edition like yours @Azet Aya ! (Didn't look every single one though):

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